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Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Mon, 28 August 2006 11:41 Go to next message
StooMonster is currently offline StooMonster
Messages: 230
Registered: August 2006
Location: Kent, England
Senior Member
Subject as per thread title.

Source: Sky HD 1080i/50 (note from HD channels, not upscaled SD)
VP: Lumagen VisionPro HDP
Display: Pioneer PDP-5000EX plasma (50-inch 1080p Euro model)

Discovery HD in particular seems to have a number of shows shot on 1080i video -- one that I occaionally watch is 'American Chopper' Embarassed (just for the HD) but have noticed this shows combs like crazy.

Also, 'Brainiacs' on Sky One HD; trails and channel idents on National Geographic HD; and in lots of places really.

At first I thought it was something to do with 1080i/60 to 1080i/50 conversion, but then I saw the same on 'Brainiacs' which is 1080i/50 material. Furthermore, when I deinterlace these programmes with another VP or my display's internal processing there is no combing at all.

The ProHDP is set to 'AUTO' for 1080i deinterlacing.

StooMonster

[Updated on: Mon, 28 August 2006 11:43]

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Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Mon, 28 August 2006 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pharkin is currently offline pharkin
Messages: 1519
Registered: November 2004
Location: USA
Lumagen Expert
Lumagen Tech
Did you try flipping the field? (set IN->CONFIG0>CNTRL->DEINT->FIELD to FLIP) Also see if it combs the same with deinterlacing mode set to VIDPP. We need to get a transport stream of this material or some other way of debugging it here.
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Tue, 29 August 2006 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
StooMonster is currently offline StooMonster
Messages: 230
Registered: August 2006
Location: Kent, England
Senior Member
It doesn't comb when I force video deinterlacing: to either video option.

As I've just said to Gordon in an email: I have flags up and can see it constantly switch between V, F, G, and X -- the AUTO detection is definately getting false positives on 2:2 pulldown on the 1080i50 video material.

This combing, and a motion judder in pans (probably same thing), happens very frequently on 1080i50 video material -- which is a lot of the content on Sky HD platform's Discovery HD and National Geograph HD. Crying or Very Sad

I can imagine that the only way you are going to solve this is with a transport stream, however, I think that's going to prove difficult to obtain. Sad Futhermore, once HD DVD is released in Europe that won't help because all the discs are film sourced.

StooMonster
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Tue, 29 August 2006 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gordon, Convergent-AV is currently offline Gordon, Convergent-AV
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Registered: October 2004
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Stoo: Not got any emails from you. I think they are going to spam filter again...will go check....

Gordon


Distributor of Lumagen products in EU
WWW.CONVERGENT-AV.CO.UK
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Wed, 30 August 2006 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tarbat is currently offline Tarbat
Messages: 28
Registered: July 2006
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Stoomonster, I've just viewed the 2pm episode of American Chopper on DiscoveryHD (part 1 of the I Robot bike build). I had a solid "V" on the flag throughout the entire programme except at 3 times:

1. At +18 mins, showing a still image of the shop sign with a "1 Hour Later" overlay, lasted about a second, and reverted back to "V" immediately.

2. During a fade to/from black, less than a second.

3. At +44 mins, just after the ball game, again showing a still image of a different shop sign, but this time it stayed in "F" mode for about 5 seconds and did comb and judder badly. Only fault really was the the Lumagen didn't react quickly enough to switch back to "V" mode. Rewinded to just after the still image of the shop sign, and the following footage correctly displayed as "V".

So, based on this testing, I don't see a problem with the way the Lumagen handles 1080i/50 material. There must be some other variable here - some suggestions:

1. Perhaps the Lumagen handles cadence detection better when converting 1080i to 720p rather than to 1080p. More processing overhead when outputing 1080p?

2. Maybe the SkyHD box is causing the problem. I think we've already established that my SkyHD box handles 576 material differently to Stoomonster's, since mine outputs 576i whereas Stoomonster's outputs 576p. Maybe it handles 1080i material differently as well.

3. Perhaps a difference in connection - I'm using HDMI/DVI for all connections.

4. Or maybe a difference in Lumagen configuration. Stoomonster, I note that you see V, F, G and X flags, so I'm guessing you've got Service Mode turned on. As a matter of standard practice I turn off service mode except when making changes that need it turned on. Any chance that having it turned on could cause this problem?

5. Or maybe this particular episode of American Chopper was "cleaner", allowing the Lumagen to better detect cadence changes.

I did lose sound a couple of times though
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Sat, 02 September 2006 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
StooMonster is currently offline StooMonster
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Registered: August 2006
Location: Kent, England
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Seeing as we are reposting from AVforums...

Tarbat

5. Or maybe this particular episode of American Chopper was "cleaner", allowing the Lumagen to better detect cadence changes.

The two "I, Robot Bike" episodes didn't have much combing at all ... typical! Other episodes have been almost constant throughout.

The "Davies Love Bike" episode (one following "I, Robot Bike") had two sequences that combed quite significantly: one where Senior gave Mikey a car (it stays locked in F mode for about three minutes) and another towards the end when they rode bikes together.

In addition, when it combs the picture has the "classic" slo-mo effect as well as pinpoint combing lines (on my 1080p display) on edges of motion. Interestingly if one pauses and then continues in one of these comb sequences, it drops straight back into V mode; it's as if it acquires a F lock and then cannot drop it.

Bear in mind I've seen this on other channels too, e.g the channel promo of 'National Geographic HD' where the chap wakes up in bed and goes downstairs to make a cup of coffee; also I will record 'Brainiacs' on Sky One HD tonight, because last week the title sequence combed like mad.

Note: I am running latest firmware (Production Release 080406); I am not stupid and running 576i output and complaining that it's combing (thanks!); and as mentioned before running VIDPP and VIDNC fixes the problem, but like Tarbat I hate the idea of having to change deinterlacing methods dependant on material type.

Liam @ Prog AV

all video material throws up the odd false detected film frame all the time so you can't be gauranteed 100% video detection - especially with 1080i where it's still relatively new to the mass market

The other two 1080i deinterlacers I am comparing to Lumagen (one of which is the new Pioneer HD chipset in the PDP-5000EX plasma) do not fail on video material that Lumagen does. BTW it's material recorded on Sky HD so I can run it through all three of them, via HDMI and component too. Smile

All I am doing here is highlighting that Lumagen is not perfect Surprised but feedback will enable them to improve 1080i cadence detection. If we can find specific examples that constantly cause the Lumagen deinterlacer problems then all the better, as it will give them something to work with. :smashin: Very Happy

Tarbat

2. Maybe the SkyHD box is causing the problem. I think we've already established that my SkyHD box handles 576 material differently to Stoomonster's, since mine outputs 576i whereas Stoomonster's outputs 576p. Maybe it handles 1080i material differently as well.

Yes, EDID data makes Sky HD handle 576 different. I have a number of different VPs and displays, and Sky HD outputs 576 differently depending on EDID settings: e.g. Sky HD outputs RGB to Lumagen and YPbPr to iScan VPx0. Also, if yours is not outputting 576p to Lumagen by default then it's different to all the other posts I've read on AVforums and DigitalSpy where everyone seems to have same 576 configuration as me. My Sky HD model is Thomson 607120 btw.

StooMonster
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Mon, 06 November 2006 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tarbat is currently offline Tarbat
Messages: 28
Registered: July 2006
Junior Member
Can Lumagen do anything to fix this, or improve the film cadence detection on 50hz 1080i video material? This combing on video material is very obvious, it's as if the Lumagen detects what it thinks is film material, BUT then remains in film mode for far too long (30 seconds) where the picture then combs all that time.

StooMonster wrote on Sat, 02 September 2006 10:27

The other two 1080i deinterlacers I am comparing to Lumagen (one of which is the new Pioneer HD chipset in the PDP-5000EX plasma) do not fail on video material that Lumagen does.

Add the Sony KDS-55A2000 SXRD TV to the list of TVs that also do not fail on video material that Lumagen does.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 November 2006 08:55]

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Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Sat, 16 December 2006 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agentdavo is currently offline agentdavo
Messages: 3
Registered: September 2006
Junior Member
Hi,

I have a few samples of the transport stream for you.

I'll PM you with details.

David.


A : Meridian 568.1 / DSP5000
V : Meridian 598DP with SDI / VisionPro HDP / MB200 / X360 / HTPC with SkyHD / 3.5Tb Thecus N5200 NAS / 42PHD8
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Mon, 18 December 2006 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RandyFreeman is currently offline RandyFreeman
Messages: 1151
Registered: September 2006
Lumagen Expert
Hi David,

We would be very interested in getting some transport streams so that we can duplicate this problem. Please send an email to support@lumagen.com so that we can make arrangements to get this material.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman


Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Tue, 26 December 2006 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agentdavo is currently offline agentdavo
Messages: 3
Registered: September 2006
Junior Member
Sending you an email now.

David.


A : Meridian 568.1 / DSP5000
V : Meridian 598DP with SDI / VisionPro HDP / MB200 / X360 / HTPC with SkyHD / 3.5Tb Thecus N5200 NAS / 42PHD8
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Tue, 20 March 2007 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tarbat is currently offline Tarbat
Messages: 28
Registered: July 2006
Junior Member
Can Lumagen update us on progress on this problem. This is the main problem that's stopping me using my HDP on SkyHD, and I need to know if it's likely to be fixed soon.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 March 2007 13:36]

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Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Tue, 20 March 2007 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RandyFreeman is currently offline RandyFreeman
Messages: 1151
Registered: September 2006
Lumagen Expert
Can you capture some clips that demonstrate the problem? We need some short clips of material so we can work on this issue. If someone has some transport streams or mpeg4 files that they can post, please send a message to support@lumagen.com and we can give you instructions on how to upload material.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman


Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Wed, 21 March 2007 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tarbat is currently offline Tarbat
Messages: 28
Registered: July 2006
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RandyFreeman wrote on Tue, 20 March 2007 18:16

Can you capture some clips that demonstrate the problem? We need some short clips of material so we can work on this issue.
Sorry, but since these are broadcast programmes on SkyHD in the UK, they're encrypted with Videoguard, so no chance of getting hold of a decrypted transport stream or even getting the broadcast onto a PC to encode to MPEG4.

Only option would be to invest in a Dragon CAM with the Videoguard emulation, and a DVB-S2 satellite card, and then you could capture the TS onto a PC. I simply can't afford that level of investment, but maybe Lumagen support can?
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Wed, 21 March 2007 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gordon, Convergent-AV is currently offline Gordon, Convergent-AV
Messages: 1643
Registered: October 2004
Location: UK
Lumagen Expert
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Lumagen are in USA so it'd be hard for them....I am not in a Sky area so cannot help on that front. I do know someone who has ripped some SkyHD to their HTPC so will attempt to try to get hold of the content but the stuff they have doesn't show the issue I think. It's some of the Jools Holland stuff.

Gordon


Distributor of Lumagen products in EU
WWW.CONVERGENT-AV.CO.UK
Re: Got a lot of 1080i/50 =C-O-M-B-I-N-G= going on Wed, 21 March 2007 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
RandyFreeman is currently offline RandyFreeman
Messages: 1151
Registered: September 2006
Lumagen Expert
Hi Gordon,

It would really help to have a couple short video clips that show the problem.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman


Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
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