Lumagen Forum
Lumagen Support Forum: Official Lumagen Video Processor & Scaler Forum

Members   Search      Help    Register    Login    Home
Home » Lumagen Video Processors & Scalers » VisionDVI/HDP and HDP Pro User Support » Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned...
Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Sun, 23 April 2006 16:25 Go to next message
pciav is currently offline pciav
Messages: 27
Registered: January 2005
Location: College Point, NY
Junior Member
I currently own a VisionPro HDP and I am very happy with it, its performance and Lumagen as a company. Although the price of the Radiance has me more than a little concerned, I have been thinking all along that I would be purchasing a Radiance in one of its forms. So far we know about the Radiance XD and Jim Peterson has mentioned a possible Radiance XS see here.

I've posted in two threads over at the AVS forum, here and here and so far nobody else seems to be concerned about a problem I discovered while researching HD DVD, specifically the handling of HDMI Audio and the interaction of the Video Processor and the Pre/Pro or Receiver.

I know that HD DVD has just hit the streets and Blu Ray is not far behind and we still do not know everything, but what we do know is that HDMI will carry both the Video and Audio. We can no longer say that we will hook the HDMI up directly to our display and use and optical or coax digital cable for audio. Although you can, you will not be able to take advantage of all the new audio formats as you must use v1.1 or newer of HDMI. This forces the VP to be connected to the Pre/Pro or Receiver and pass Video and Audio so the audio can be processed and it also requires the Pre/Pro or Receiver to output HDMI Video to the display.

Given the current state of HDMI and HDCP problems, this sounds like a complete nightmare to me and would like to know if Lumagen can shed any light on how they plan to handle this. Is it possible to strip the HDMI Audio while processing the input of the Radiance and have two separate outputs, one for Video and one for the Audio so we can keep the Video direct to the display and avoid interaction with the Pre/Pro or Reciever and leave that to handle just the audio? To me this seems like the best solution if it is possible.

I see all kinds of problems going Source HDMI > VP > HDMI Out > Pre/Pro or Receiver > Display. Am I crazy or this a real problem?

I would like to see a third model in the Radiance line, The Radiance Digital: 6 - 8 HDMI Inputs with separate Video and Audio HDMI outputs. Digital In and Digital Out, no analog inputs or outputs, let one of the other models support the legacy items. With the way things are moving, how much life do the legacy items have left? By the time the Radiance is set to hit the street HD DVD and Blu Ray will both be out. For the target audience of the Radiance with its price point, the average user is going to have an HD STB w/HDMI, an HD DVD w/HDMI, a Blu Ray w/HDMI, plus the possibility of keeping and SD DVD w/HDMI.

I would love to hear some other feedback and thoughts.

Phil C.

[Updated on: Sun, 23 April 2006 16:28]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Thu, 27 April 2006 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jim_peterson
Messages: 1378
Registered: November 2004
Location: Beaverton Oregon, USA
Lumagen Expert
Lumagen Guru
Sorry for not posting sooner.

HDMI audio is an issue as they are using a new encoding/encryption for HDMI from HD-DVD/Blueray players. For audio on the HDMI connector, you will need HDMI 1.3 chips. We will use these in the Radiance series - assuming they are available as they should be.

On the other hand, its not much of an issue as you can still use the SPDIF/TOS-link out of the HD-DVD/Blueray player, and other sources, for audio and get Dolby Digital and DTS into the Radiance. The Radiance has 6 SPDIF and 2 Tos-link inputs. So, you will get sound into and out of the Radiance products.

You will need to delay audio using either the Radiance delay circuitry or using the audio preamp/receiver. The video delay using the Silicon Optix Realta is much longer than our current delay using the Silicon Image 504, making audio delay a necessity.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen



Jim Peterson
Lumagen

[Updated on: Thu, 27 April 2006 18:25]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Thu, 27 April 2006 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pciav is currently offline pciav
Messages: 27
Registered: January 2005
Location: College Point, NY
Junior Member
Hi Jim,

With all due respect you do not need HDMI v1.3 for audio out of HD DVD and BluRay. v1.1 is capable of 8 channels of high rez PCM and anybody now that has a receiver or pre-pro with HDMI v1.1 can take advantage of the new audio formats. A good summary of this can be found here.

SPDIF/TOS-link out is all but dead. Yes you will still be able to use it, but see the summary in the link above and the article in Widescreen Review for why this is the least desirable option. In order of preference/quality for the new formats:

1. HDMI v1.1 or higher
2. 5.1 analog output
3. SPDIF/Tos-link

In my original post above, my point was/is that a stand alone VP in the future is forced to interact with a receiver/pre-pro via HDMI because of the audio requirements of the new Digital Audio Formats. This has the potential to be a major stumbling block due to video incompatibilities unless you can separate the audio output from the video and have two HDMI outputs, one for video (to the display) and one for audio to the receiver/pre-pro. This will eliminate video incompatibles and/or polluting of the video signal in the receiver or pre-pro.

I know things are real new on the HD DVD front, but based upon the initial release and tests and what is known about BluRay, this has the potential to be a real problem that seems as if no one has fully thought through with the exception of Anthem and the release of the Statement D2.

I urge you to look at this more closely and if possible consider separate Video and Audio HDMI outputs on all versions of the Radiance to be released.

Phil C.

[Updated on: Fri, 28 April 2006 00:05]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Fri, 28 April 2006 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jim_peterson
Messages: 1378
Registered: November 2004
Location: Beaverton Oregon, USA
Lumagen Expert
Lumagen Guru
Thanks for your insights. They are right on.

I must have bad info on the HD-DVD. I had been led to believe that the Toshiba HD-DVD would only output audio in the HDMI 1.3 mode. Good info to have.

The RadianceXD already has two HDMI outputs, so one could be used for audio. I have already been considering leaving the second HDMI output for the RadianceXS and allow it to only output audio for precisely the reason you give. The negative with this of course is that we have the extra cost to deal with for the second output and the RadianceXS price needs to be a lot less than the RadianceXD.

One other option might be to send everything through the Lumagen, output HDMI to the amp/receiver, have the receiver split off audio and send video on the the display. This would require a 1080p capable HDMI switch in the amp/receiver of course. It would allow us to delay, or not delay, the audio as required by the video processing mode and still only consume a single HDMI output. Do you have any issues with this approach?

I agree that the HDMI audio will be better than SPDIF, but still SPDIF provides very good audio quality. However, I can see why you want to make sure we deal with HDMI audio properly. It is the way to go in the future.

This is a very good dialog to have. If you want you can send additional thoughts to me at support@luamgen.com or continue here.

We definitely want to have feedback like this. We are new to doing the audio stuff and want to make sure we don't mess up. I even put an additional FPGA in the Radiance products to switch and process (if needed) audio. This is because I want to make sure we can provide the best in not only video but also audio.


Jim Peterson
Lumagen

[Updated on: Fri, 28 April 2006 19:15]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Sat, 29 April 2006 03:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pciav is currently offline pciav
Messages: 27
Registered: January 2005
Location: College Point, NY
Junior Member
Jim,

Thanks for taking the time out to answer these questions. Your thoughts and time are appreciated.

jim_peterson wrote on Fri, 28 April 2006 14:06

...One other option might be to send everything through the Lumagen, output HDMI to the amp/receiver, have the receiver split off audio and send video on the the display. This would require a 1080p capable HDMI switch in the amp/receiver of course. It would allow us to delay, or not delay, the audio as required by the video processing mode and still only consume a single HDMI output. Do you have any issues with this approach?


I have very serious concerns about this approach, not on Lumagen's end, but on the Receiver or Pre-Pro's end of things and not for Audio, but how the Video will interact. Will the HDMI implementation in the Receiver or Pre-Pro have the correct repeater or non repeater function implemented. Will this cause signal passing issues. What if their implementation doesn't want to see non-standard video reolutions? The Lumagen may work fine, but the Receiver/Pre-Pro could potentially stop the video from being output.

Next, what about pollution of the Video signal in the Receiver/Pre-Pro from there own video processing/switching/transcoding or whatever they implement. It very well may work, but it seems the potential for problems is great. The best solution is to have two outputs, one for Video straight to the display and one for Audio to the Receiver/Pre-Pro.

I've been toying with the idea of picking up an HD DVD Player and a Pioneer VSX-74TXi Receiver just to try what you say above. The Pioneer has 2 in and 1 out v1.1 of HDMI. I would feed the HD DVD HDMI out to the Pioneer input then the HDMI out of Pioneer to my VisionPro HDP to see how it goes. If I get a chance I will try this and report. I know if you plug an SA-8300HD DVR into the Pioneer HDMI to HDMI, you get an HDCP error. This is with most if not all current implementions because you can not turn the repeater mode off in the Receiver.

In theory this should all just work, but in the real world so far it does anything but.

jim_peterson wrote on Fri, 28 April 2006 14:06

...We definitely want to have feedback like this. We are new to doing the audio stuff and want to make sure we don't mess up. I even put an additional FPGA in the Radiance products to switch and process (if needed) audio. This is because I want to make sure we can provide the best in not only video but also audio.


HDMI Audio seems to be less of an issue than Video, especially with initial reports of how v1.1 handles HD DVD so far. V1.3 or 2.0 whatever they are going to call it, if it is ever finished will expand on this. What is good to know is that so far, v1.1 will do everything that is needed with the exception of pass SACD and quite frankly, who cares. It's all but a dead format. It's ironic that SACD & DVD-A are dead because of draconian copy protections schemes, poor implementation, and two competing formats, sound familiar???

I'm glad there is some development left on the Radiance so these issues can be flushed out before release. I look forward to hearing more as we go along. That Radiance Digital I suggested above is starting to make a lot of sense...

Thanks for listening.

Phil C.
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Mon, 01 May 2006 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acykiu is currently offline acykiu
Messages: 47
Registered: January 2005
Location: HK
Junior Member
Sorry to chime in.

Just to let Jim know that I'm happy with the other option. My receiver is aged old and does not have HDMI. In all likelihood, I'll be getting a new one when the dust settles. So, I'm not really concerned with all these "pollution" issue.

I have a less than state-of-the-art system and my eyes/ears are getting old ...

Smile


One other option might be to send everything through the Lumagen, output HDMI to the amp/receiver, have the receiver split off audio and send video on the the display. This would require a 1080p capable HDMI switch in the amp/receiver of course. It would allow us to delay, or not delay, the audio as required by the video processing mode and still only consume a single HDMI output. Do you have any issues with this approach?
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Tue, 02 May 2006 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
madshi is currently offline madshi
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Member
I think the audio problem is a tricky one. If we look at the countless problems with current HDCP sources and receivers, I'd say that having only one HDMI output will be a problem.

On the other hand the Radiance XS must really be as affordable as possible. And hopefully the player and receiver manufacturers will improve their compatability, at least when HDMI 1.3 is out.

Overall my point of view is to use only one HDMI output in the Radiance XS. In the long run it should be good enough. In the short run it might make trouble with some (most?) receivers. But why should those people who have fully compatible HD-DVD/BluRay/receiver combinations have to pay the additional cost for a 2nd HDMI output in the Radiance XS? Those who buy incompatible receivers/players will simply have to buy the Radiance XD or to use SPDIF/TosLink instead.

One additional request for Lumagen: I know the Realta is power hungry and difficult to deal with without a fan. But please try to make the Radiance XD/XS as silent as possible. Maybe you can get along with a monster heatpipe or something like that. But a fan inside the video processor will turn lots of people (well, me at least) off. If I see a consumer device with a fan in it, I spread my legs and begin to run away! Well, if you absolutely *have* to use a fan, at least use a big & silent one, temperature controlled, if possible, and with rubber isolators etc. If there are any reports like "my fan is so loud" on the forums (as is the case with the Vantage-HD), that will mean lots of lost sales to the fan-less competition like Crystalio II. This should not be under-estimated.
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Tue, 02 May 2006 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gordon, Convergent-AV is currently offline Gordon, Convergent-AV
Messages: 1643
Registered: October 2004
Location: UK
Lumagen Expert
Convergent AV
Madshi: Great post....One of the things that really annoyed me about another scaler I was involved with was the "silent" billing it had when the reality was it had a loud fan on the PC powersupply they used....then when they overheated they redesigned the case which made it EVEN LOUDER...... The other noisy culprit was the orignal Rock which had a fan that was on all the time....even when the scaler was in standby!

Gordon


Distributor of Lumagen products in EU
WWW.CONVERGENT-AV.CO.UK
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Tue, 02 May 2006 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
madshi is currently offline madshi
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Member
Oh, the horror stories of past scalers... Very Happy

[Updated on: Tue, 02 May 2006 21:00]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Wed, 03 May 2006 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pciav is currently offline pciav
Messages: 27
Registered: January 2005
Location: College Point, NY
Junior Member
madshi wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 09:02

I think the audio problem is a tricky one. If we look at the countless problems with current HDCP sources and receivers, I'd say that having only one HDMI output will be a problem.


Amen to that, so far it is mostly a horror story.

madshi wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 09:02


On the other hand the Radiance XS must really be as affordable as possible. And hopefully the player and receiver manufacturers will improve their compatability, at least when HDMI 1.3 is out.


Agreed, the XS must be affordable and a considerable price difference from the XD. But honestly, how much cost would it be to add a second HDMI output that carries just the audio signal? The amount added would be inconsequential to the final selling price. The XD second output is not akin to what the second output on the XS would be used for. These are two different animals.

Hopefully the player, receiver and pre-pro manufacturers will improve their compatability, but I do not see what HDMI v1.3 is going to have to do with that. Everyone is caught up on v1.3 as if it is going to be some great revelation and everything is just going to work. The reality is properly implemented v1.1 is all you need to make things work right now and the foreseeable future. v1.3 is going to add very little. The way I am reading things, decoding of the new DD & DTS formats may never take place outside of the player due to advanced content authoring which requires the players to do the decoding. Hi-rez PCM output is all that is required and v1.1 does that right now. Like everyone else, i am also waiting for v1.3 for whatever enhancements it brings, but it is not absolutely necessary.

madshi wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 09:02


Overall my point of view is to use only one HDMI output in the Radiance XS. In the long run it should be good enough. In the short run it might make trouble with some (most?) receivers. But why should those people who have fully compatible HD-DVD/BluRay/receiver combinations have to pay the additional cost for a 2nd HDMI output in the Radiance XS? Those who buy incompatible receivers/players will simply have to buy the Radiance XD or to use SPDIF/TosLink instead.


You are leaving an awful lot up to third parties to make sure you new Video Processor works. It is going to come down to buying a receiver or pre-pro that is known to work instead of the one that sounds best to you. If it all works, great, but based upon the sad state of affairs right now this is why I am uncomfortable and want to keep things pure and traditional: Video out directly to the display and Audio out directly to a receiver or pre-pro. Its all about having choices and I think HDMI itself is limited our choices enough already.

I agree with your stance on the fans. Audible fan noise = no sale. I feel the same way about having separate HDMI audio and video outputs.

The market is already limited especially due to the MSRP on these next generation VP's. Taking this into account, it would make sense to take steps that guarantee the broadest compatibility and customer appeal and not shrink the market any further. These are just my thoughts and are directly related to the current frustrating state of affairs. I think and hope it will get better.

Phil C.

Even further off the beaten path and just thinking out loud... I would like to see three processors in the Radiance line just like the current VisionPro line up:

1) Radiance Digital - 6 HDMI Inputs, 2 HDMI Outputs (1 Video, 1 Audio)
2) Radiance XS - As above with addition of determined analog inputs and outputs
3) Radiance XD - As designed.

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Wed, 03 May 2006 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
madshi is currently offline madshi
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Member
Well, I don't know how much cost a 2nd audio only HDMI output would add. No idea, really. It might also result in having to design a larger mainboard and/or case. But if not, the cost may not be that high.

Personally I agree with your suggestion to get rid of all analog inputs. I don't need any of them. But I also don't really need two fully fledged HDMI outputs nor 6 HDMI inputs. I'd be happy with a nicely priced XS with only 4 HDMI in, 1 HDMI out and no analog connections whatsoever. I will need one external SDI to HDMI converter box, though.

Would it maybe be an option to remove all analog inputs from the main unit and make them available optionally as a seperate little box? Just a thought...
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Wed, 03 May 2006 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pciav is currently offline pciav
Messages: 27
Registered: January 2005
Location: College Point, NY
Junior Member
Considering you can buy an HDMI 2 in 1 out switcher with a remote control for about $80, adding the second output should not impact the cost very much if at all.

I really do not need 6 inputs either, but that leaves little flexibility for future products. I can think of a situation in the next two months where I am going to need 4 HDMI inputs for the immediate future until things get washed out.

HDMI 1 - Cable or Sat STB
HDMI 2 - SDDVD Player
HDMI 3 - HDDVD Player
HDMI 4 - BluRay Player

Eventually those three players could be combined into one, possible two, but who knows what the future holds right now. Six just seems like the right number.

I like your idea of a modular design, but do not know if that is feasible or would be cost effective for Lumagen.

The next several months are going to be interesting as things start to shake out.

Phil C.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 May 2006 17:05]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Wed, 03 May 2006 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
madshi is currently offline madshi
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Member
Well, IIRC Lumagen has already decided to use modular design for analog output and SDI input (these will only be available through external boxes, I believe). So my thought was: Why stopping there? Why not moving all analog inputs to an external module, too? That should lower costs for those people who don't need these. And maybe the main VP case could be made smaller this way.
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Wed, 03 May 2006 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
csundbom is currently offline csundbom
Messages: 320
Registered: October 2005
Location: New York City
Lumagen Expert
I have two displays, so I would use both HDMI ports for video. Assuming an HDMI port is not a huge cost implication, I would like to see a Radiance with three HDMI ports, one dedicated to audio.
Re: Lets Talk Radiance and How HDMI Audio Will Be Handled, Very Concerned... Thu, 04 May 2006 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Nic Rhodes is currently offline Nic Rhodes
Messages: 22
Registered: August 2005
Junior Member
Gordon, Convergent-AV wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 19:05

Madshi: Great post....One of the things that really annoyed me about another scaler I was involved with was the "silent" billing it had when the reality was it had a loud fan on the PC powersupply they used....then when they overheated they redesigned the case which made it EVEN LOUDER...... The other noisy culprit was the orignal Rock which had a fan that was on all the time....even when the scaler was in standby!

Gordon


As an owner of a KD, Razz , THE BIGGEST issue I have with it is the noisey fan. In fact it is in the process of being phased out with possible help from Lumagen. Fan noise and lights you cannot dim are probably the things that annoy me most about products but actually have no impact on 'performance'. They are however deal killers, so spend the money on the quietest fan possible and make a selling point about it. It will win customers over.
Previous Topic:Sky HD w/ HDP vs. Std DVD w/ HDP?
Next Topic:HD-A1 meets Lumagen
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Nov 12 23:47:24 GMT 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03002 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Convergent AV    Light Illusion