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50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) *UPDATE* Fri, 30 January 2009 23:23 Go to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Hello,

I've received my RadianceXD today (had an iScan VP50Pro before). I'm very content with the performance but noticed a problem in handling of 50Hz 2:2 material ("PAL-Film").

I can see something like occasional "mild" combing - especially in slow scenes. The only explanation I can think of is a change to Video-Mode (but why does this lead to slight combing in this case?) and back to Film-Mode.

It makes no difference if I use the "Film" setting in the deinterlacing menue.

To illustrate the problem I have recorded one scene. I used a SD-DV Cam so the quality is not very good, but the problem can be seen ~@ second 2 for a very short moment in the video.
www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/test.avi

To exclude a problem with my Radiance I have also created a short DVD with the original material. It would be very nice if you could test it and give me a feedback if the described problem also occurs on other machines (look at the mouth of the guy with the cartridge belt ~@ second 15):
http://www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/test.ISO

I know that the correct detection of 50Hz material is not easy. My iScan had a "Forced 2:2" setting that forced weaving of two adjacent fields (the above scene runs flawless with this option on my iScan). Could something like this be implemented in the Radiance?

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2009 18:06]

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Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem Fri, 30 January 2009 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RandyFreeman is currently offline RandyFreeman
Messages: 1151
Registered: September 2006
Lumagen Expert
Thanks for the video clip. We will try it.



Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem Sat, 31 January 2009 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Thank you. I also managed to watch 50Hz video material and noticed some combing. Although chances for the "fixed 2:2" setting may be low, what about a fixed video-mode?

Best regards

Denis
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem Sun, 01 February 2009 02:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
The "regional combing" also occurrs (for short moments) when watching 60Hz 3:2 material (film mode is enabled) in slow scenes (accompanied by judder as the 24 frames/s aren't restored in this moment). Sometimes no combing occurs but stutter is present for a short moment. The display is not the problem - if I switch output of the Blu-ray player to 24p, everything is constantly fine. No problems as well if I use the iScan for deinterlacing. So at least my unit doesn't have a stable cadence lock.

Here is one example (The Tudors - Blu-ray, part 1, season 1, ~41:30)
http://www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/film_3_2.avi
(look at the stutter @~ second 5)

A defect should be unlikely - but is my hope at the moment. Otherwise the deinterlacing performance would be very disappointing for me.

edit: Watched more material today - the conclusion: Interlaced material from film source is unwatchable (regardless if 50Hz 2:2 or 60Hz 3:2) because of stuttering and combing. The Gennum VXP may not be as flexible as the ABT solution but I never thought it would be that bad.

Again the "Tudors" (output from the player in 1080i60), right at the beginning. The deinterlacer detected the cadence first but that happened a few seconds later:

http://www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/radiance5.avi

In the next, faster scene the combing disappears - only to come back a few minutes later. This toggling can be observed during the whole film. Can't be right.

I hope that there is a solution because - apart from the deinterlacing performance - I really like the Radiance. Firmware is '011609'.

edit2: Current situation
Sorry for the continual updates but I'm still trying to isolate the problem. After resetting to factory settings and turning on genlock function again I achieved at least a stable cadence lock for 60Hz 3:2 signals. Could watch a movie @24Hz for about 90min without any problems. Curious: This is only possible in Auto-Mode. As soon as I activate the Film-Mode I can see some combing in certain situations (especially very fast and very slow ones). That leaves me a little bit worried . The described problems with 50Hz 2:2 and video signals remain.

I've only provided a link to 50Hz 2:2 material in my first post. Here are two iso files with DVD structure and 50Hz video material. On my machine there is combing in many scenes so I won't post the time indices. Maybe these files help to see if there is a special problem with my unit (or underline the importance of a forced video mode - especially with low quality broadcast material like this and in addition to stable 2:2 handling).
www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/pal1.iso
www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/pal2.iso

After watching more 50Hz 2:2 material I can say that this combing in parts of the image is present in *all* those movies (so it definitely falls back in video mode for a very short moment). Of course, this is a subtle problem but the Radiance is -up to now- my most expensive video processor so I have some expectations... and hundreds of PAL videos.

-----------------------------

Summing up (a good idea I think, because my posting has gotten very confusing ), I have the follwing questions/ :

1) Is this 2:2 handling state of the art for the used Gennum VXP? I heard of users with a Crystalio VPS 3100 who are very content with the 2:2 detection.

2) Why do I see some combing in 3:2 material in Film-Mode while running in Auto-mode everything is fine now?

3) The Auto-Mode doesn't work reliable for 50Hz video material (that was true for my iScans too, but they had a forced video mode) - a forced video mode is planned?

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Mon, 02 February 2009 16:10]

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Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Wed, 04 February 2009 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Could somebody please test it? I'm still within the return period and my dealer should know as fast as possible if I can keep the Radiance.

50Hz 2:2
http://www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/test.ISO
(explanation in my first posting)

50Hz Video
www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/pal1.iso
www.bkh-von-der-mark.de/pal2.iso
(explanation in my last posting)

I can provide more material tomorrow.

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Wed, 04 February 2009 13:24]

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Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Wed, 04 February 2009 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fatjulio is currently offline fatjulio
Messages: 71
Registered: July 2006
Member
The film mode is a 2:2 pulldown, so with 3:2 you must use auto. I've tried the Pal1 and Pal2 iso's and the original test iso and have found no problems.

I'm assuming you've updated the firmware to the latest? The Radiance will ship with older firmware and may have worse deinterlacing than what is current. Or you have a bad unit.

I'm in a PAL country too, and it's been pretty good.
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Wed, 04 February 2009 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Thank you very much! That brings back hope to me. I see a lot of combing in the two files with video material (latest fw installed). Player is a Oppo DV-980 (576i50). Guess that there is a problem with my unit.

I'll wait what Randy says and speak to my dealer.

Best regards

Denis
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Wed, 04 February 2009 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fatjulio is currently offline fatjulio
Messages: 71
Registered: July 2006
Member
On AVS forum the moderator of the video processor forum is Ofer Laor, he is in Israel and does alot of PAL. If I remember correctly he has a deinterlacing torture test sequence he's made of PAL material, and the Radiance passed with flying colours.
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Wed, 04 February 2009 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RandyFreeman is currently offline RandyFreeman
Messages: 1151
Registered: September 2006
Lumagen Expert
Thanks for posting the test clips. We will look at the test clips that you posted.


Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Wed, 04 February 2009 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
VirusKiller is currently offline VirusKiller
Messages: 652
Registered: February 2007
Location: Hogsty End
Lumagen Expert
fatjulio wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 20:58

On AVS forum the moderator of the video processor forum is Ofer Laor, he is in Israel and does alot of PAL. If I remember correctly he has a deinterlacing torture test sequence he's made of PAL material, and the Radiance passed with flying colours.
IIRC, there have been some issues with the Gennum/Radiance which look like deinterlacing problems, but aren't.

I think I'm seeing one at the moment (with the PAL version of Simon Schama's Power of Art), but I need to check it against a couple of other deinterlacers first.
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Thu, 05 February 2009 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Unfortunately the links are down at the moment. I've uploaded them on rapidshare again:

50Hz 2:2 (original iso and presentation by my system):
http://rapidshare.de/files/44839070/2_2.rar.html

50Hz Video (original iso files)
http://rapidshare.de/files/44841936/video_iso.rar.html

presentation by my system:
http://rapidshare.de/files/44843186/video_avi.rar.html

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Thu, 05 February 2009 22:54]

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Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Thu, 05 February 2009 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RandyFreeman is currently offline RandyFreeman
Messages: 1151
Registered: September 2006
Lumagen Expert
We played the test clips that you posted. We didn't see any deinterlacing issues.

1. What is the title of the war movie DVD?
2. Have you tried playing both of these DVDs on a different video source other than the Oppo DV-980?
3. Have you see deinterlacing issue on any other video source?
4. What is the brand and model of the display?
5. What resolution and rate are you driving your display?

Best regards,
Randy Freeman



Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Thu, 05 February 2009 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Quote:

1. What is the title of the war movie DVD?

Southern Comfort (PAL version)

Quote:

2. Have you tried playing both of these DVDs on a different video source other than the Oppo DV-980?

I've tried a Sony Blu-ray Player (S350E) with 576i50 via HDMI with the same results.

Quote:

3. Have you see deinterlacing issue on any other video source?

The only other source (apart from the Blu-ray Player) is a DVB-S Receiver (Kathrein) which can also output in 576i50 via HDMI. Same problems.

Of course they're quite subtle with Film sources (nevertheless it looses cadence lock) but video sources (see my currently uploaded rar file with the some avi files filmed in front of my TV; will be finished in a few minutes) show severe and frequent combing.

edit: Here they are:
http://rapidshare.de/files/44843186/video_avi.rar.html
I think you already have the corrsponding iso files but you can also find them in my previous posting

Quote:

What is the brand and model of the display?

Samsung LE52F96

Quote:

What resolution and rate are you driving your display?

For 50Hz film and video: 1080p50

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Thu, 05 February 2009 23:11]

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Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Sun, 08 February 2009 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Here's the info screen:


http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/69/1896769/2560_3365 646430626338.jpg
http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/69/1896769/2560_6664 633139313164.jpg
http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/69/1896769/2560_6430 626139396466.jpg

and another example (only avi files):

http://rapidshare.de/files/45052626/videos.rar.html

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Mon, 09 February 2009 01:07]

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Re: 50Hz 2:2 problem (60Hz 3:2 too) Fri, 13 February 2009 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Master468 is currently offline Master468
Messages: 17
Registered: January 2009
Location: Germany
Junior Member
I'am absolutely horrified. My german dealer received my Radiance, told me that he also saw the problems and that they could be solved by reconnecting the deinterlacer board. I've gotten the unit back today and the problemls remained. I tried to reconnect the deinterlacer board but with no success.

Now my dealer tells me that the test sequences (you saw most of it here in the thread, and Lumagen/ Randy already told me that they should run without problems) are too bad and that the unit ist OK. I'm too ambitious or incompetent...and should watch more real world material (btw. I had the chance to test a Crystalio II with the same deinterlacer and the sequences ran also without problems).

Is this good support for a 4000 Euro unit bought from an official dealer? I never experienced something like that and I'm just completely shocked at the moment.

Best regards

Denis

[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2009 18:59]

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